for the next four years they will be looking at this person. they know what obama is like. they know many people support him. at this point in time they don't know enough about romney and the specifics on his vision. he needs to lay some of that out. bill: in terms of specifics, maybe you hang one fact out there. i'm going to take the unemployment rate and do this with it. >> you have to be factual on those things. he laid out a tax plan without any details, what does that mean? bill: do you find most guys cheer their guy and boot other one? >> usually debates reinforce the side you are on. you look for the good points. center few people are totally neutral going in and it's not entertaining, it's educational. bill: that contradicts the point about saying maybe in the case of governor romney. there is a sliver of people saying i don't know enough about this guy. if he convinces me, he might get my vote. >> i think that's important. if the election were held by the polls he's a few points behind. he needs the debates to change the dynamics where people say this is a down to the wire race.